0:11 Hmm. Wow. We did it live. Andy Frasco's World Saving podcast. It is festival season people. Yes. Oh Yes. We're back. Festival season is here. Yep. Most of them are back. Most of them for now. Including a very big one that we interviewed. Yeah. We just interviewed one of the founders, the founders of New York's biggest music festival Governor's Ball. Yeah. That was awesome. He was incredible. Yeah. You know, you thought you'd think these guys would be a little more pretentious, but they're not. I would be if I was them, but I don't know. I guess not. And he's like a music fan though. Yeah. He was wearing a phish sweatshirt. What is this thing with every major guy in music, whether they're booking jam band s**t or not all started as Phish fans.

0:54 I have an idea of that Because Oh, as a business mind, they probably respect the f**k outta Phish how they built this f*****g career. They're geniuses And no f*****g singles. No singles on the radio, just straight live music. Also, Their business model is pretty, like, really good. They keep it all, all their money in house. They make their own merch. Did you know that, By the way, this is Nick Gerlach, my co-host. They know it's Andy Frasco World Saving Podcast. They know who I am by now. Welcome back. They've already turned it off. They're Like, f**k This a*****e. What are they gonna do? Just a nick, only one to get notified. Yeah. Um, but Phish has a crazy business model where they keep everything in house. They're very smart with that. That's how I wanted to get this guy on the show. Don't, don't do It. I, I'm just kidding. I don't even know if You won't pulled the Kanye on there. I don't Even know if that's true, actually.

1:43 Oh my God. Um, but yeah, it's, uh, being a promoter in this day of age takes some f*****g balls. I'd rather be an ER doctor. I think Granted, you know, you gotta, you got a bank that's Live Nation or a EG, whatever it is when you're on these bigger festivals, but just like, put your dick out there and be a music festival promoter. Founder takes a lot of coones. And on the topic of having a bank like Live Nation, you have to get yourself to the point where they will give you money. Exactly. Also, they will bail on you so f*****g fast if you start, it's not like, they're not like homies where it's like, oh, I'll bankroll another one. It's like, what Was that? There's like Mound Jam. Yeah. Um, I think it's called Mound Jam. Yeah. Yeah. West Virginia. No, no.

2:23 Um, or no, Woodstock, New York. Oh, that, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Live Nation or some of them. One of them bought Mound Jam. Mm-hmm. And from this guy Gary. Mm-hmm. Um, and uh, which I'm kind of frustrated with Gary. Uh, he didn't book me on his festival when he promised me, but anyway. Is this The Catskill Chill guy? No, no, but It's around there. I'm on to you, Gary. Yeah. Gary, you did a good job not asking Tom Russell if you could be play the festival next year. Dude, You f*****g tried to burn me in the beginning. No, we are homies. He, he knew. He knows us already. Yeah. Yeah. He said he is listened before He tried to burn me in the beginning. It wasn't before he gonna ask you. Oh. He thought it was funny. So annoying. Most people know jokes, But like when I'm asking, you gotta, it's better. It Wasn't during The interview. I know, but like, you doing it before, just to get a f*****g quick joke.

3:09 Mm-hmm. Doesn't make the interview. When he gets a surprise to me asking, then it's like, I Didn't think you were gonna actually ask him that. I was The F**k you'll get on there. I don't think that'll f**k you, Dude. I know, but like, Don just like, it's like telling someone the questions before Nah. The interview. I didn't think you would actually ask them that. You know, I'm not a p***y. I ask anyone anything, you know, I Have no line. Yeah. I Ain't no f*****g softy. I bet you get on anyway. No, I'm not. He, he told a straight head, young fans like Jam fans. Yeah. It's like, no 35 year olds. Yeah. No. Yeah. All Jam fans are like 40 years old now. And he said the festival scene's gotten way younger. I think that's 'cause of EDMA little bit too. And pop. He said he's like only booking pop and rock.

3:50 Yeah. Weird. But you're gonna love this interview. I mean, if you like the business side of music, all the bands out there who like, are wondering how to get on Bonnaroo and wondering how to get on, um, Governor's Ball, governor's Ball. Coachella, Coachella and ACL. We just, big luck talked to the f*****g founder of one of these big ass festivals and he was honest about the whole thing. He was cool. You know, he didn't sugarcoat it. I felt like a lot of these guys probably sugarcoated a hair, but we're gonna get more of these guys. I wanna get outside Lands Guy on there. He was Pretty practical. I gotta get John Bongiorno on there too. Wheres The outside lands again? Is that in California? No, Um, yeah, It's in San Francisco.

4:31 We should call John. It's in San Francisco. Right. And see what's his take on these vendors Isn't in the Bay. Um, My sister goes to it. We should call him. He probably won't answer. He, I could tell when he is super busy. Yeah. He's short with me on text sometimes. Hold on. This is my agent, John Bongiorno. Yep. I knew it. Um, that's His Voicemail. Call me Johnno. That's hilarious. Um, he put you right to the, he didn't even let it ring. Nope. He knows He's in a meeting with someone that makes more money than you. Oh, Hold on. Lemme text on a team call. Yeah, sure. I wanna Put you, I wanna put you on the pod. Get The whole team call Talk. He's on a team call. I wanna put On talk, be the whole team on the pod.

5:14 Um, Okay. Governor's Ball. All right. Nevermind. Um, but, you know, agents, you know, John's a big agent. He manage, he books K cr bin. He books Royal, who's on Governor's Ball. I'm just curious to hear both sides of the story of, you know, it's like the push and pull of it all. The push and pull of it, you know, like to get these big headliners, you know, do you need to do, is there a negotiating power to get some of their smaller bands off? Sounds Fun. It's like, uh, you're holding the cards. You're both holding cards. You both Have some leverage. You Both have some leverage. It was very fascinating. We love leverage in this podcast. We Love leverage. I almost never have it, but God, I do.

5:55 Oh man. Speaking of leverage volume.com. Speaking of leverage, Sign up for our only, uh, f Rasco subscription. Listen, everyone, this is what's going down. We are doing less things on the internet. Mm-hmm. So this is the way to get a hold of more content. If you can't see this band play a lot, because you might be in some, you have a job. You have a job or Life. Yeah. Or, you know, it's again, exp you know, it's expensive. We keep the shows cheaper, but it's still expensive to go travel. Do your thing. Travel. And if you just wanna watch the band from the comforts of your home, five bucks a month, we'll give you one live stream every month.

6:35 You can still watch this from your house. You go chug a beer with your Hey RA's playing this Friday. Bring your neighbor. Yeah. Make it a party. Get drunk in your basement. And We're gonna be doing exclusive podcasts. Mm-hmm. And Nick's setting up a really hot and really cumy trivia Show platform, if you will. Nick's going too. We're gonna be competing for your Yeah. I'm gonna destroy you. Actually, I don't think so. That'd be so fun. That would be funny If I get, we should just do this together. But if I get, if you wanna do your own. No, I think one thing in my life could be not connected to you. All right then. I don't know why I'm pushing so hard to be, because You're my friend. Right. You care about me and you want me to be successful because you're not around me all the time.

7:15 I need something to do. When you're on the road with your band. 200 days a year. Andy thinks I just like, am like the Indian of the cupboard. And like, I turn, like, as soon as he lemme sit up, uh, as, as Andy thinks, I'm like the Indian for Cupboard. And like, he's like, oh, I'm going to on the road tomorrow. He thinks he just like, puts me in a closet and I just like, turn into a statue. And then he, and then he texts me when he gets home. He's like, can you come over and set up the studio and I come to life? That's what you think it is, isn't it? Right. No. Have you ever heard of, so You also do trivia. Yeah. But I don't do it when you're not there. Have you ever heard of Sonder? No. It's like when you realize that other people also have these, their entire lives and thoughts and feelings too. Oh Yeah. You've been telling me that They're not just characters in a movie. No. The World doesn't evolve around Me.

7:58 Not even that evolve around you. Revolve, revolve and evolve around you. But, um, it's like when you realize everybody has their own like, full life too, and you're just a character in their life as well. Yeah. Something to think about. Anyway. volume.com. Sign up for both Nick and my sign Up for his thing. Mine's not ready yet. Just do his first. It Will be when this comes out. If you have extra money, do mine. Andy's an important one. We all know how, Oh my God. I'm just kidding. Look at this. I'm so good at this. I learned Little f*****g EOR over Here. That's from my, that was my nickname in high. I gotta Stop. I'm, I'm just gonna start thinking about myself. But finally I try to get everyone paid out here and everyone's just like, I haven't, I know. I don't know if I ever complained.

8:40 You're p****d when they, when you know, When I'm not going into it. I'm not P****d. I'm not getting into it. You're, you're conflating me with other people in your life, aren't you? Sign up for volume back home. Um, how you doing Nick? What else is Going on? I'm actually doing really well. I guess it's festival season. Are you on any festivals this year? This is the festival episode. No, I'm doing a bunch of after parties for widespread panic and s**t. Like really? I'm doing Asheville after party. What? What? I'm playing with a colt. We're gonna do Asheville in July. That's sick. We're at the Asheville Music Hall. The one stop. The bottom hook. Sick. I know. It's gonna be sick. I got a local band. Well, I, what's that? July I wanna go. You should go.

9:20 It's like late July. Yo. And, and panics playing. That'd Be sick. We should go to Governor's Ball next week. I'm Down. This is, uh, New York City. I think you don't have a good, you think The hook is up with like, sick tickets? Probably. We're pretty important. Damn. We are kind of important People. Founders wanna be on our podcast. Where It's in Queens too. I like that. I haven't really spent much Time. I thought it was on an island. It was. It moved. It's moved like four times. Oh really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Just keeps getting bigger Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Or just cheaper to do it. God, it must be a pain in the ass to deal with the f*****g city of New York. Ugh. Sounds f*****g, I don't even like it on the Instagram. It's hard to deal with the city of Denver. I Love New York City, but it is a lot.

10:01 It's a lot. I couldn't live there. I wanna go. That sounds fun. Who's on OTI role? Odi. Um, God Damnit. I think Tyler the creator. Mm-hmm. I gotta look again. But there's a bunch of badass like pop stars. So Head over to Governor's Ball. It's gonna be great if you're in the New York. You a lot of New York fans on this podcast. Go. Tom's a really good guy. He was cool As hell. He Was cool. He used to super fly. Was it? Yeah. Super Fly. He was, he was one of the top dogs at Superfly, which Produced Bonnaroo, which Produced Bonnaroo. Not anymore. I like his story. You said, Hey, are you going to, I wanna start my own big thing. And they're like, well, good luck. Yeah. And then he f*****g did it. So shut out the Tom. Yeah. That's good job. I don't think they do Bonnaroo.

10:42 They must have sold Bonnaroo, huh? I think. No, they still do it. I Thought they sold it Or what? To who? C3 Superfly or something. Well, C3. No, no. Live Nation. Live Nation. They did sell it to Live Nation. Well, C3 is Live Nation too. So they might have sold a C3 before they went to it. Damn. It's all like a big monopoly soon. I Know. Yeah. Well, whatever. Pretty Exciting. What else are you mad at me about? That's it. Nice. Just existing? No, just having my own life and No, I work hard for you and you work hard for me. We have f*****g, we work hard. We have gr Relat. I think we have a really good working relationship. Actually. We do. You've never yelled at everybody says you yell at them. I, I never, Never yelled at you. I Don't think I've ever done anything. Everyone Who said I'm f*****g yell at, at. Just kidding. I was kidding.

11:23 Just trying to get under your, but I, I probably Bo I think you've yelled at Bo I've yelled at Bo yelled. I, no, I yelling. Just got frustrated. I think you're more of a passive aggressive guy. When you get mad at people. I normally yell at a mirror. Yeah. The thing is, you don't beat anybody up harder than you beat yourself up. So Why do we do that to ourselves? I Dunno. I don't know. It's just natural, I guess. Stupid, But people are like, Andy can be so I'm like, he's always nice to me. Maybe you should show up on time and do your f*****g job. Tell him how You feel, Nick, Mr. On time. Never, you Know? Yeah. Only minimal mistakes. I am a human being. I'm not perfect or anything. I don't complain about doing my job. Mm. No, you're right. I don't. No.

12:05 Or do I? No, I don't think so. Not anymore than like a normal person. No. I mean, you cannot, you're allowed to complain sometimes. It's okay to Complain. Yeah. No. But just not can't, you can't make it your personal. What Do you complain about? Hmm. Am I a big, I don't think I'm a big complainer. You're not a complainer, but I'm more of a pointer outer of observe. I like to, That's complaining. Yeah. But More about stuff for other people. I don't, I'm, nothing's really p*****g me off right now. You'll really grudge my gears. Maybe this politics are kind of annoying, but that's everybody's complaining about. That's normal. That's, I, yeah. I don't know too much about politics. I'm starting to get into like, just hearing people's opinions. So I'm hearing every side of the opinion, which is kind of cool.

12:45 Yeah. But it's also getting me confused. It's very confusing because everybody's so dumb too. Everyone's dumb and they all think they're f*****g smart. And it's just like, then I'm just like, damn, am I dumb? Or it's Like, the more readily you give your opinion, the less interested than I am. Like, am I dumb thinking these people are dumb? Hmm. No. You're allowed to have your own opinion too. Okay. But anyway, this is not the talk. This is a music festival episode. Yeah. But we're not even saying anything about politics. We're just saying shut up about it. What about the politics of being in a music festival? Oof. There's gotta be a ton of, and there's a lot of politics. There's gotta, dude, there's Bureaucracy. Red tape. These guys deal with, I'm trying to see. It's like high School, probably like trying to get to high school prom date. You know, think About with every state has a festival trying to book the same bands.

13:29 Mm-hmm. And the bands are like, I want to take every show. So the agents have to really like, negotiate Uhhuh. You're, you're cutting out the radius clause for this. So they could do this if you want this type of deal. So it's like, it's a juggle man. Yeah. Like, for my show opening you for August, I was like, I'm not doing a radius clause. You do radius clause. They tried to make me, I was like, I'll do one before, but not after. What'd They say? 60 days or something on either side. I'm like, I'm just opening. Okay. It's a free show. Yeah. I think it's just a standard thing. They put in everything. Yeah. I was just f*****g It's Live Nation too. Yeah. My show's three months. My show before is three months ahead, so it Wasn't Are you excited for your big show Opening for you at Levitt? No. Oh. Well, that already Happened. That's that's the biggest one you've done in a while.

14:10 Yeah. It'll be sick. Um, But, uh, no. Don't you have another show, like a headline show? Yeah. But That had already happened at this point. I'm opening for Victor on Friday. Oh yeah? Yeah. How was that great Band Smashed to Victor Wooten Brothers are incredible. Great crowd. Seemed like a killer show. Everyone was stoked. Everyone was super stoked. The band's really good. We're better than ever. That's how you do it. The Colt baby. Ah, funny. I am stoked for the Lovet Pavilion thing. I haven't played there in a while. I played there with Opio in two years ago. That was fun. I love that Place, Dude. It's fun as s**t. I think more people are going to that now. I think they're Getting outta the little Red Rocks vortex. Yeah. I mean, and like, it's so hard to get dates anymore at Red Rocks, so it's like, you might as well do a big show in your local town. When I first moved here, red Rocks had like 80 shows a year.

14:56 Now they have like 200 at. I feel it's crazy. Yeah. They, they're, they're, they started booking Red Rocks now in March. Yeah. I've played my, my first year the f**k I played here, I played Red Rocks four times the first year I lived here. Right. And it was like a way different kind of bands were playing here. It was more of like a th it felt like more of a thing now, Pete. It's like a gig. Mm-hmm. Do you think the Mission Ballroom did that? Yep. I love going to Mission. Um, speaking of Red Rocks, I have shows to announce. Oh, you're playing? Um, I'm going on tour. We're going on our little bus tour, little summer tour. Oh. June 12th, Washington DC Ooh. Um, I, For my brother to come, um, What is that, the nine 30 Club? Yeah. Yep. That's in dc. Yeah.

15:36 June 13th, Dewey Beach. Excited to go back there. Oh, Ryan Felipe. Ryan. Felipe the 14th. We're at Northlands. Where's that with Ally Crawl? Is that a festival? Yeah, it's in, uh, Swansea, new New Hampshire. Take A breath. Heartburn. I got A little heartburn. I drank too much coffee today. Mm. Uh, the 15th we're doing. Oh, we're doing a private party. But damn, those, those old Jews love my ass. I'm doing a private party. That horror is paying off. That Horror is paying off. Shout out dude. Every time you do the horror, you get another 10 grand. A little more though. Um, straight from Trek, straight from the Israel. Straight. Jesus F*****g Christ. Um, then I got three days off.

16:17 And then we head to Almont Colorado. Almont Colorado. Listen, I'm actually coming this time. Is This the one you had to Second time? I've canceled. I'm not, I will not cancel. You canceled twice on them Once I was sick. 'cause of Red Rocks. The other one that we thought there was gonna be a sword. Weather. Weather, uh, a snowstorm. Because the next day was, um, uh, mission bar. So we canceled it and then it was a f*****g beautiful day. And I, I got s*****d on. That's Fair. I'm sorry. But I will be playing at June 19th. June 20th. Cheyenne, Wyoming. Oh, fun, fun. I'm excited with that. Then 21st. Excited for this one free show at Steamboat Springs, Colorado. 22nd free show in, I'm trying to, it's the econ Economy plan.

16:57 Yeah. I'm trying to do a lot more free shows. So yeah. So everyone could afford to go. Um, the 22nd Huntsville, Utah, 25th. Jackson. Jackson Hole, Wyoming, 26th. Pine Creek. Rich People. I'm excited. Livington Montana. Uh, Missoula, Montana on the 27th. Boise on the 28th. And then High Sierra Music Festival. Oh s**t. Three and four. Then I fly the fifth to Sherman, New York for Blue Heron Music Festival. That sounds fun. Long drives though. Long drives. But we Have ready Gonzo. We have the tour Bus or the bandwagon. Get ready. Gonzo. Gonzo. Get ready. You better put something on his poop. Eye of the tiger on baby Uber hand job card he's got going. Yeah. Better Start Lubing up that arm.

17:41 It's so weird. He likes to beat off while driving. Wait, What? I didn't know this part. You don't know This? I only know about the him getting, He says it relaxes him. Yeah. I don't want my driver too relaxed. I mean, at night, you know, it's like, I get it. You drink seven cups of coffee. It's four in the morning. There's no one on the road crank one out. But I've never done that. We've all Been there. That's kind of weird. I mean, no, I haven't even, I've never Jerked off while driving. No, I'm looking at my phone. It's too busy to, I can't do three things. F*****g Weird. No, I didn't know about that. I knew about the other thing we talked about last time with the, uh, massage parlors. Oh yeah. He loves that too. Guy loves getting jerked off, I guess, no matter who does it.

18:23 All right guys. Enjoy Tom Russell. Enjoy everything. And Nick, uh, cheer up. Charlie. I'm fine. What are you talking about? Cheer up. IOR was my nickname in high school though. You Do kind of, you are out sometimes. Why? If I brag about some types of money, like Oh, lucky you. I've never said that. I don't think I said Wow. Nice. When you told me about some gig you had yesterday. That's sick. Oh, Lucky you. I didn't say that. You're just making, now you're making s**t up. Ooh, just, oh, okay. Just wait for me while I, Andy put me in The closet. Andy wants to make A fake. That's so Funny's. Great movie though. I know. What's that movie called? Indian In the Cupboard. It's also famous children's book. It's a great Movie. Yeah. It's also a book. I don't, I hope you don't I don't feel that way towards It's A joke. We're on a podcast, Andy. I Know. I have to tell.

19:08 I forgot you were sensitive. Yeah, everyone is. Everyone doesn't like me right now. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, well. But they like you in Salaries. I'm being strict. Dad. What do you mean? I'm just Being stricter. Like, on the road. Like what? You have to be in bed by midnight or what? Not that district, but Like, like how strict can you be? They're adult. I'm just not partnering with them as much. Mm-hmm. You don't have to. It's actually good. Yeah. It's not a, it's a business Trying to lay down laws. Yeah. It's good to think about trying To keep us alive. Try to living past 75 or Yeah. Six. Trying to have that with the old band. Yeah. I don't think that's bad. Okay. I'm not mad at you at all. I'm not mad that you're making money. I don't know why you have this in your head. You think I'm out to get you. These Guys think I'm these Guys. I like when you do Well, I'm attached to you.

19:49 So the better you do, the better. It's for me. Actually, this Is the thing about friendship, right? Is I'm not talking about you about this. I know. Just trying to, you did just Say you though, before that. I know. I It was a joke. Like you said. It's a Podcast. Okay. All right. I gotta go. Bye. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're done. And we're live. You know, not every day we get to talk to a talent buyer. Um, we have Governor Ball, the are you the founder of Governor's Ball? I am a co-founder of Governor's Ball. Ladies and gentlemen, we have Tom Russell on the show. Co-founder. This isn't no ordinary f*****g jam band vessel.

20:30 This is the real deal. Holy field. And we got Tom Russell baby. How you doing bud? I am hanging in there. How are you guys? I'm good. What's getting there? What is the, what's the dynamic like being a talent buyer in 2025? Well, I gotta, I gotta let you guys know I'm not a talent buyer. Oh, well, running a festival. Um, the festival space is really interesting right now. Feels like there's just so many of them. Right. It used to be, used to be just Bonnaroo. Mm-hmm. And, uh, God, what was that one called? Um, up where Electric Forest is now Rothbury, uh, Rothbury. Yeah. Yeah. That was it. Maybe gathering of the Vibes. Yeah.

21:11 And then, you know, Lollapalooza and then Austin City Limits. So, you know, you had this rapid growth and nowadays I feel like every, um, primary market, secondary market and tertiary market has a festival. Right. Crowded space. So how do you, uh, how do you know what bands to pick for a bigger festival? Like then how big are these radius clauses? The radius clauses vary by, by show and market. My issue with New York City is that it's every band's best market. I know. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Every, Every artist wants to play here. So that means a couple things for me. It means that their talent fee is gonna be rather high, right? Mm-hmm. Right. Because they're giving up that New York City play.

21:52 Um, and, you know, we're competing with the Garden and Barclay Center and, um, Brooklyn Paramount, Brooklyn Steel, all these amazing venues. And, you know, a lot of bands want their own look. Right. In a market like New York. Mm-hmm. So why For us at Gun Ball, it's just putting together the best package that we can to stand out. 'cause we're, we're competing with, uh, the City of New York. Yeah. So what's, uh, what's your pitch on them not taking a, uh, Barclay Center show and taking a government's governor's ball offer? So it depends on the act, right? You, you pitch acts in different ways. But, um, if you're a headliner, I'd make the argument that, um, you are gonna be playing in front of 40 plus thousand people.

22:34 Right. That's more people than the Garden Barclay Center. Mm-hmm. You're gonna be playing in front of an audience that includes your fans, but also others. Mm-hmm. So it's a great opportunity to gain new fans. And it's also a chance to play in a venue that very few people have played. Right. A couple years ago we moved to Flushing Meadows Corona Park, which is one of the nicest parks in the city. It's in Queens. And, uh, you know, it goes back to the, um, you know, early to mid 19 hundreds. And it's just an incredible, incredible venue. Uh, they had two world's fairs there. It's where that massive unisphere is. Mm-hmm. You're familiar with that? Yeah. Uh, so it's just a, a really, really vibey unique venue. And, uh, there's really a, a magic about it.

23:16 And I think with any venue, whether it's in New York City or Denver or, or Topeka, right. There's a, there's a vibe in a room mm-hmm. Or a vibe in a park. And this, this park is rather vibey. When did this thing start blowing up? I know this was like a, you know, it's after how many years did it take for this thing to really become a thing in New York? So we started in 2011, and I, before that I worked at a company called Superfly. Oh yeah. We started Bonnaroo. Right. And, um, you know, so I had always wanted to kind of have my own festival in my, in my hometown. And, uh, in about 2010 we started to see this, this cultural shift toward festivals where, you know, bands wanted to play them more and fans wanted to experience festivals.

23:59 And, um, you know, more and more of them were popping up and doing well. We were just coming outta the financial crisis. Right. And, um, it seemed like a good time to, you know, try it out. So I called up two buddies of mine and they were at similar places at their jobs. And, um, you know, we all left our jobs and made this our primary focus and launched in 2011. But it was super small. Yeah. Right. Where, you know, it's super, it was a 18,000 person event. Our headliners were Empire of the Sun, pretty Lights Girl Talk. Uh, it was pretty niche. I call it like party music. Mm-hmm. Electronic. But, you know, it's got a funky beat to it. It's fun. Yeah. And, uh, it was just different.

24:41 So it was a one day event and it was a little bit of a proof of concept. And it worked. You know, we, we made a little bit of money enough to come back in year two. And then in year two we lost a little bit of money. Mm-hmm. And we were pretty much even, and we decided let's throw all of our chips in the middle and see if this thing works. 'cause we always wanted to be that major music festival. Like a Lala or an ACL or Bon Roo. Yeah. So we, um, we quadrupled our talent budget more than that. Uh, we moved venues to a, a bigger venue and we went for some huge acts and we ended up booking, uh, Kings of Leon, Kanye West, uh, guns N Roses, the xx, Kendrick Lamar.

25:24 Like, everything just kind of fell into place. And I think partially that was, uh, because it was a unique offer for the artists, but, you know, there was no dynamic ticketer pressing at that time. Right, right. Yeah. Some of these artists were able to, you know, get paid more to play the festival than they would play in the garden at Broccoli Center. Nowadays, it's not like that. Yeah. Do you think dynamic ticketing has f****d the festival scene? Um, it has made it harder to get some talent. Right. It used to be if bands really wanted to make money, they play a festival. Right. And, you know, nowadays you could play the garden and if you dynamically price your tickets, you can make more. Yeah. Or you play a stadium and you can make a lot more.

26:04 Uh, so it's made it trickier to book artists. Um, I think what's unique to festivals is that festivals don't dynamically price their tickets. Right. Right. Right. You can't, they, that ticket price is on their website Yeah. For everybody to see. It's not changing. Yeah. So do you think like these, uh, tick not these Ticketmaster, but these companies that are like monopolizing with the promoters and with, do you think it's, it's f*****g up the growth of like, developing bands? Uh, it's a interesting question. And I'm not a talent buyer, so I'm not sure whether I'm best suited to answer this. But I will say this, when it comes to dynamic pricing, everybody's in the mix on it.

26:47 Everybody knows what's happening. Yeah. Everyone's getting their f*****g pennies too. Right. The manager, the artist, the promoter, the venue. Like, everybody's getting a piece and everybody's signing off on it. So, you know, if it is making it harder, it's a collective decision Yeah. To do what's best for them. Right, right. And then, you know, what it does to the macro environment, I, I couldn't tell you, but I think, you know, as these, as these concert tickets get more and more expensive, I think festivals provide real value. Right. To see a shitload of bands for not that much money. And there's, you know, multiple payment plan options to spread out that cost and different ways to experience it. Um, I think, uh, you know, it gives really great bang for your buck. Do you think, uh, COVID f****d the, uh, the sleeping at the festival type of festival?

27:32 Yeah. I think that more festivals popping up killed that. Yeah. Oh yeah. True. Supplying demand. Man, I think it used to be like the, the big camping festivals were the only major ones out there. Right. I mentioned Bonnaroo earlier in Rothbury. Yeah. Like, there weren't that many festivals around at that time. And if you wanted to see a sick jam band festival, those are your options. Right. Yeah, Totally. Nowadays music, music tastes have evolved a lot. Um, there's a festival in every market, so it's a heck of a lot cheaper to go see a show, a festival in New York City than it is to, you know, get in a car, rent a car, drive down to Bonnaroo, or a camping festival and, you know, camp out for four nights. Just easier.

28:13 And it's more comfortable. Yeah. And it's more comfortable to go hang out. Exactly. A much different experience though. Right. Not to knock Bonnaroo. 'cause that's, you know, right. Those are my roots right there. And I think that festival's, you know, one of the best of all time, it's just, uh, it's just so different. And it, it's a different financial expenditure. Emotional expenditure, and, uh, just different vibe. Is there beef between Bonnaroo and Governor's Ball? There's like a Tupac Biggie beef. There's like, were they p****d that you started your own festival? Prodigal son? Like is there's, give us some dirt with owner to owner. Right. So I was at Superfly from 2006 to 2010. Um, I went to school at Tulane in New Orleans. Oh yeah.

28:54 And that's where my musical taste really expanded. And, uh, prior to my freshman year, I went to the first Bonnaroo had the best time of my life. And I said, I gotta, I gotta do this for my profession. I gotta intern at this company. Where are they based? And it turned out that Superfly was based in New Orleans where I was about to go to school. So I begged them for an internship and eventually got one, worked there for a, you know, a good bit of time and learned the tricks of the trade when it comes to festivals. Um, and it got to the point where I wanted to start my own thing. So I went to my boss and I said, I wanna start my own thing. And he goes, it's really risky. And then I said to him, can you guarantee me that I'll make a hundred thousand dollars by the time I'm 30?

29:35 Oh, yeah. You were young when you were with them, right? Like 26. Yeah, I was, yeah. I was in my younger twenties. Yeah. And he, he said, I think I can get you there, but I can't put it in writing. Wow. So I said, you know what, if you're not gonna do that, then I'm gonna go, I'm gonna try this thing out. 'cause I knew that if it failed, like I could maybe get a job back at Superfly or I could figure it out. And you're Young. Um, and I was pretty young, so, you know, I left and I tried it out. But those guys were all super supportive. And I learned everything I know in this industry from my Superfly days. Right. So working on Bonnaroo and outside Lands, and at that time the industry was so different, you know, it was the, everybody was independent and it was real, it was a real family.

30:16 Right. And, you know, there, there was no hiding of info. Everybody was in it together. Everybody was emotionally attached. And, um, you know, when I left, they, they were always very supportive. And I'm still such close friends with, uh, the Superfly guys who've moved on from Bonnaroo. Yeah. Um, and I'm super close with the, the folks who currently run Bonnaroo. I still go every year. Yeah. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. Richard Slavin's, one of my, uh, old managers. Cool. And, uh, so it's like learning about the, I'm learning about the dynamics between, because my question is, when you're taking that step to make it a bigger festival, and you're tripling your budget, how you getting funding for this? Who, who's saying yes to this? Like, what the f**k?

30:56 You're like, I got this big idea. I want to get these bigger bands who's saying yes to stuff in the riskiest industry in the world? It's the riskiest f*****g thing on the planet who's saying yes to this? All right. So when I, when we started Gov Ball, we put together a 12 page business plan. Yeah. Talked about the rise of music festivals. We talked about how we were, you know, in the US we're all just following what they do in Europe. Right. We're always a few years behind them. Yeah. Right. Uh, and at that time, there were so many festivals doing well in Europe. So, you know, I crafted the, we crafted this business plan that, that showed that, you know, festivals were a growing segment. Um, these city festivals specifically were doing great, but New York City didn't have one. Uh, we did an analysis of the bands that we wanted to get and their ticket sales history in the market, you know, a pretty well thought out business plan, um, showed it to basically friends and family.

31:43 And we raised 700 grand for year one. Wow. And we used that money to launch the festival. Now that money would not have covered us if, uh, if s**t really hit the fan. So, yeah. Right. You know, we raised as much as we could. We booked the bands, we went on sale, and we hoped for the best. And we were really, really lucky. Right. On year two when we lost the money, we had to get a bridge loan. Um, and that carried us through to year three when we went on sale. And for year three, you know, when we had that big lineup, um, you know, we were really, all of our asses were on the line. 'cause if it didn't go well, we were already in debt. Right. It's over. Yeah. And, you know, we'd have to pull the show down, negotiate with these agents for a kill fee and, you know, just eggs on our faces.

32:30 Um, but it worked out. We sold a lot of tickets and since then, it's kind of been, uh, you know, not smooth sailing by any means, but, um, we've been growing and doing well. People don't realize how f*****g expensive it it is to start have a festival, to make a festival. It's people think the promo, the, the owners are just making a s**t ton of money. Why don't you break it down how expensive it really is to put on a festival. Um, this year's gov ball will cost 25 to $26 million at the total expense. F*****g Christ. Yeah. What, so what, what's the most, what's your most expensive stuff outside of talent? It Typically you are gonna go, you're gonna see like half talent, half production and operations.

33:15 Right. You know, and then it really falls off. And then you get to, you know, marketing, um, insurance, stuff like that. But site operate, site production, and then talent really, um, comprise the bulk of the expenses. You gotta be a real crazy person to f*****g have the balls to do this. Tom, this is, maybe we should put you in charge of the federal government budget. Yeah. Maybe we should put you. Yeah. You should be our guy. Sounds like you know what You're doing. I mean, look, I don't know if you want somebody that's gonna take a crazy risk, like literally putting your ass on the line Yeah. But is like Yeah. Yeah. Who Happens. Yeah. Whoops. Um, but you know, I think everybody who, um, you know, everybody, you gotta take a swing. Yeah. Yeah. You gotta try it. You know, my coming from the Bonnaroo days, you know, and the, especially in the early days, it was such, um, you know, there's real magic at these festivals.

34:03 Yeah. Especially in Bonnaroo. Mm-hmm. And I think I was just bit by that bug and I was just so driven to bring my hometown of New York City a music festival because there's no reason why New York City shouldn't have its own festival. I agree. Yeah. Like, um, 8 million people. Right. Yeah. I didn't really know at that time that like, you know, it's such an expensive city and like you're competing against every amazing venue in the city. Yeah. Because there's just so much good programming at all times. Yeah. And that's why in 2013, we just put together a lineup that was so big that people just couldn't say no to it. Right. That's, it's, yeah. It's insane. It's like, I feel like Coachella too, before Coachella, what was California's festival mm-hmm.

34:45 Didn't Have much. So why is it, why is, are people intimidated to put these festivals in these 20 million, 20 million people Cities? Marcus? Yeah. Marcus. Well, I think most bigger markets have festivals nowadays. Um, and it's so expensive that if you're, if you're like a day-to-day promoter Right. You know, booking, you know, venues from 500 people to let's just say 20,000, the the risk is just not nearly as high as a festival. Mm-hmm. You could launch a festival and have crap ticket sales and lose millions of dollars and that would just sink your entire year or your company. Mm-hmm. So, and I think that keeps a lot of the, the folks that are in the territory business or day-to-day booking business out at festivals.

35:27 'cause it's such a, a scary thing. Mm-hmm. Um, and, you know, it also takes talent out of their rooms. So, you know, they, they wanna keep the good talent going to their rooms. Right. Um, but it's such, it's such a big risk and, uh, it just takes a, a certain type of, a certain type of person. And nowadays, like the, the cash flow has really changed in terms of the, the needs for cash flow. Like when we started, we raised 700 grand. We had to pay the artists 25% upon confirming. Mm. Oh my god. Damn Right. Nowadays, if you're an independent, especially if nobody knows you, you have to pay a hundred percent upon confirming. Yeah. Wow. Right. So that can, could immediately prevent you from, from moving forward right then and there.

36:13 Right. Yeah. We just so happened to, to be at an earlier time in the, the US festival evolution before festivals started canceling and promoters started keeping people's money or agents didn't get paid. Right. Right. Yeah. Now it's like I normally see in my deals, uh, when it's a really well-known festival, it's either half or just the agent's fee. Right. Is that still the same? Yeah. Yeah. My question is when you're, you're, you're a jam head, right? We've I see the fish. Yeah. Yep. Um, what do you, what's the, what do you think the state of that industry is in 2000 Jam scene? Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of dying, right? Um, yeah.

36:55 Is it, is there still one Yeah, It's kind of fragmented a bit. Right? Um, you know, Phish is still doing big numbers. Goose is doing big numbers. You know, you have bands that used to do much bigger numbers like Mo and String Cheese just doing, you know, different numbers. Um, but I think there's still that, that die hard fan base out there. Mm-hmm. Right. You see like widespread panic or string cheese going to markets and doing three night runs and selling out immediately at a high ticket price. Mm-hmm. Um, I think, you know, that it'll be more regional touring. Um, and there was like 5,000 cap rooms, three to 5,000 cap rooms as opposed to the, you know, the gardens or the arenas Do blame that on fatigue them playing in every market, playing every festival.

37:44 Do you think fatigue is part of that downside? I don't know if it's fatigue. I think part of it is just, um, you know, musical taste and evolution. Yeah. Yeah. And how people consume music. And it's just so, uh, there's just so much out there nowadays. Right. Right. There's so much to choose from in terms of, in terms of music. And also, you know, I've seen Phish a few times, seen Weiser panic a few times our bullets. And after the 105th show or whatever it is, you're like, you know, I got two kids and I wanna watch a TV show on a Friday night maybe, and sleep as opposed to go see my 120th show or whatever. It's, I'm, I'm not going to Indiana again to go see F*****g Fish brother.

38:26 Um, I don't care how good the grilled cheese is. Yeah. Tell me a little bit of your take of why the EDM scene blew up. Um, you know, I think similar to Jam Scene, it's a, it's a real family community oriented, um, fan base. And, you know, people rally around that. And I think, you know, similarly, I don't know, I don't know that every, any show is the same. Yeah. Right. I think that beauty of Jam bands is that every show is different. You never really know what you're gonna get. And I think with electronic music, it's pretty similar and there's a, a magic and a specialness to, to those sorts of environments. You can go see an indie rock band they put on an amazing show, but it's the same show every night. Right? Yeah. Same key and same energy bills, same releases, all of that.

39:09 Yeah. With Jam and, and Electronic. Um, you just never know what you're gonna get. You get the good, the bad, the ugly, um, or the epic that you'll never ever forget. And I think that's what's, what's, um, led to the staying power of, um, of those genres. With that being said, Why are There not as many of those type of bands on Governor's Ball? So we aren't as big of a festival as we need to be to feature more genres? Yeah. So when we started Gov Ball, we had this kind of like indie, indie, electronic pop rock rap mix, what I used to call party music. Mm-hmm. Right. A funky beat.

39:49 It's upbeat, it's fun stuff you wanna hear at a party. And then we expanded it in 2013 to feature hip hop and indie rock and folk and all, and electronic and all these genres. We wanted to be that eclectic multi genre festival that Bonnaroo Lala, ACL, Glastonbury, all these other festivals were. Uh, and we did great. But as time went on, um, we started to, um, see less demand for our tickets. And we looked at the lineup and we said, you know what? Maybe we need to take a little bit of a, of a different direction. Mm-hmm. Maybe for the EDM fan, you can't just have one or two bands a day. Maybe you need to have four or five or six bands a day. Right. But we only have four stages, right? Mm-hmm.

40:31 So we don't have enough stages and space to feature enough of every genre. Right. And that's why, you know, that we went through like a little bit of a hip hop period where we're kind of honing in on hip hop Now I think we're honing in a little bit more on kind of pop mm-hmm. Rock. Um, and you know, you look at Lala, they have, what, eight, 10 stages, right? 110,000 people a day. They have enough programming slots to feature everything and to have enough to sell a ticket to those dedicated genre fans. Mm-hmm. But for me, I don't have as many slots, so I gotta kind of really hone in on a, a lane, if you will. Yeah. And, and that's been beneficial. We've seen that, uh, the results of that, uh, positively Kind of kinda like ACL, right? Yeah.

41:14 Yeah. Absolutely. ACL. Uh, but ACL is much bigger and they do have more stages, but I think Texas is just a unique animal and they have that ACL brand has, was alive well before the festival. Right. Had a, you know, a, a big fan base of, of folks who just appreciated songwriting and folk and Americana. Um, they, they, they have it all. But, uh, I think Lala or Bonnaroo, you're just gonna see every single genre under the sun. Not a lot of Jewish bands in Texas. I can say it, I'm Jewish, whatever. Um, my que you know, you, you last year had my, my best friends who I tour with a lot, little stranger on the tour on uh, governor's Ball. And, uh, they said how unique the experience is when as you're curating for years on, I'm wondering, was there any year that you just totally lost your ass, Um, with Gov Ball?

42:07 No, we've been lucky in that, um, you know, we only had that loss in year two. Um, and it was a small one and we've been okay since then. I think part of that is because of the market and just the brand power. Like we've been able to make up any shortcomings and ticket sales with, um, partner activations and sponsors mm-hmm. Kind of creatively. Um, but I have put on other shows that have, uh, have bombed Well, gimme, gimme them, gimme a Yeah. We want some stories. We want some stories in some s****y situ. We love Failure on this book. We love failure on this podcast. Alright, so in 20, um, 2016 or 2015, um, we were still independent.

42:48 The industry was consolidating a lot. Right. Bonnaroo was, uh, Bonnaroo had, was sold off, um, C3 sold to Live Nation. Um, live Nation, a EG Were kind of getting into a, you know, just stepping up the competition. And a EG was, um, trying to come to New York to do a festival and they had a, a lobbyist that was connected to the mayor. Um, and were able to, uh, get Flushing Meadows, Corona Park, which is the venue that we're in now, right? Mm-hmm. And they came to us and said, look, we we're close with the mayor. We have this venue. We would like to work together to, um, uh, to put this festival on together.

43:29 So, you know, we wanna do a deal with you. We said, okay, we're interested. So we talked to them for a while. Um, wasn't, didn't work out, wasn't a fit. Um, but from that conversation, we started to get the sense that we really needed to muscle up to compete in this new landscape. Yeah. Right. The bands were getting paid more money. Tickets were starting to be dynamically priced. You know, if you lost your ass, you're outta business. And we needed a financial backstop and a partner that could help us grow. So a EG reached out, didn't really didn't make sense. Um, so we started talking to Live Nation and to Madison Square Garden. And, uh, we talked to the kind of executive level, uh, folks at those companies and it was very clear who was more our speed.

44:15 And those were the, the folks at Live Nation. Yeah. Just pragmatic leadership. Um, really smart. Uh, it was clear they were gonna let us operate the business as we have been. And, you know, we can continue to do our thing and be as independent as possible, but be a part of a bigger team team. So we did a joint venture with them, um, and we had this financial backstop, so we said, f**k yeah, great. We have a bank. Let's do more festivals. Here we go. Here we go. So, uh, a EG had launched his Panorama Festival in July of 2016, I wanna say. And that was the one that they, they ended up not getting the park that they said they had. They had to do it with our Randall's Island.

44:56 Um, but, you know, we had Gov Ball, which then was on Randall's Island, uh, in early June. You had Panorama in, you know, end of July. Um, and we, we thought that maybe another festival could work in New York City in the fall. Hmm. For two reasons. Number one, most of the time bands will play in, um, they'll play in the city in the spring and then come back in the fall. Or they won't play in the city. They'll do Europe, or they'll do the South and then they'll come play the city in the fall. So we knew there was gonna be a big crop of bands playing in the fall. Yeah. Great bands to choose from. And there were no festivals in the fall in New York City. Um, doing one in New York could, you know, a band could route from a New York festival in September all the way down to ACL, um, in Austin, Texas.

45:43 Right. You could play Music Midtown in between go to Austin. So we thought, you know, we could get the bands, we know New York's a proven Market Gov Ball works. It's getting competitive. Let's, let's do it. So we put together this festival called The Meadows Okay. And came out in year one with Kanye West Chance the Rapper, um, the weekend. Geez. Uh, this great lineup, this really fantastic lineup. Um, sales were okay. Sales were Okay. What's okay to you? Um, the Kanye and Chance the Rapper Day was great. That show sold out 40,000. Cool. The weekend day was slower. It was in the low twenties. And about two weeks before the show, uh, we get a call that the weekend's pulling off.

46:28 Oh. Because he's playing, um, he's playing SNL that night. That That's right there. You can't do both. Exactly. Well, apparently you can't do both. Uh, because once you do the dress rehearsal, you can't leave the building. Oh, Wow. This is live taping And like, don't you have to work all week? Yeah. Isn't it like they're all, they're there all week to kinda like, prepare for that Look. We asked all those questions. The vibe that we got was like, listen, the Weekend's doing SNL, he's, he's not playing your festival anymore. Wow. And we said, s**t. And then we went to the agent said, who can we book? They said J Cole. So we booked j Cole, I guess the weekend, found out about this on social media, came back to us and said he wanted to be back on and play. Okay. Oh my God.

47:08 Now you're spending money on j Cole and the weekend. Right? Exactly. Oh, no. Well, We figured out how to do it. Right. We were like, we were gonna be a winner for the fans. Right. We booked, oh my God. Amazing, amazing hip hop artist and Jay Cole. We had the weekend. Right. Um, And you got the Live Nation bank. Yeah. And, and we had the financial ability to do that. Yeah. Um, so we did it and then a few days later the weekend said, eh, it's too much. Not gonna do it. Oh my God. What the f**k? Um, so he backed out and we had to kind of, um, you know, manage that situation, which was, which was not easy. Um, but it ended up being How'd you approach that? At the end of the day, we are in the artist's business.

47:52 Yeah. Right. And if the artist, we're gonna do whatever the artist wants to do, you know, so whether we like it or not, we have no choice. 'cause we wanna keep working with artists that are putting on great concerts and putting out great music. Yeah. And if they have to bail on a show because of a family issue, a personal issue, emotional issue, or a conflict, like it stings, we're gonna get angry, we're gonna get upset about it. But like, it's what the artist wants to do. We wanna keep working with the artist and as agents. Artists. So you just roll with the punches. Yeah. There's this, This like totem pole, right? The artists are on the top. Right? Then you have the managers. Yeah. Below that. Then below that you have the agents. Yeah. And at the very bottom you got the promoter. Yeah.

48:34 That's what, that's my question to you. Like after getting f*****g your eyes gouged out by all these f*****g people, how do you still love the music industry? Yeah. Um, I'm a little bit jaded. Yeah. I will say. But what makes me love the music industry is when you go to a festival or a show and you just, the f*****g band is killing it. Yeah. And everybody is f*****g feeling it. And you're like, this is why I do what I do. Yeah. Right. Or you, you listen to a new record. Right. And it's just, it's really hitting and it's just giving you those chills and you're like, f**k, this is so amazing. That's what keeps me, that that's what keeps my heart and soul in it through all the b******t.

49:18 Yeah. Well, I'm gonna f**k clap to that Tom. Justin. Let's go baby. It's the music itself. But wait, we didn't even get to the part where I lost my shirt. Well, I can't wait. Oh, okay. Okay. Let's go. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Alright. So we figure out Meadows year one. Well, actually not really, because when Kanye played, so the weekend was supposed to be on Saturday, he bails for SNLJ. Cole fills in, has a great set. Sunday was the sold out day Chance the rapper on his, you know, rise. Mm-hmm. Uh, followed by Kanye West at his peak. Right. Certainly not the, the current Kanye. I Don't think he's at his peak anymore. Yeah. Oh, maybe so. Uh, he's on stage. He's on stage performing. Um, we're about halfway through his set and he stops the show runs off the stage because his wife had been bound and gagged in Paris during that robbery. Oh yes.

50:06 Oh my God. This is the same week. Wow. Dude. Yeah. He's like, I gotta go Family emergency. And he runs off the stage. So we have 40,000 people in his venue. Everybody's like, what the f**k is happening? Right. They're so excited. 'cause Kanye put on this amazing first half of the show. Mm-hmm. Um, so I'm sprinting back to my trailer. I'm getting with my crisis PR team, my social media team. I'm on the phone with managers, with everybody trying to figure out what's happening. And, you know, as more time had elapsed, we started to realize, you know, that Kim Kardashian had been held at gunpoint. Mm-hmm. All of these things. Meanwhile, my social media team is saying, Hey Tom, everybody thinks that, you know, we canceled the show.

50:48 They want their money back. Like, uh, what do we say to these people? What do we do? Yada, yada. Because Kanye played 61% of his set time. So 61% Does that mean he still gets paid? He got paid. F**k. So what's the percentage before you can't pay him? I'd like to say 50%. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, cool. Not that that's in contract or anything, but that's just, you know, that seems reasonable. Seems reasonable. Yeah. Fair as s**t. Um, so, you know, I'm trying to figure out what to do to the fans. 'cause fans are p****d. They want their money back, they think it's our fault, or they think it's just Kanye being Kanye, so we should give them their money back. Right? Mm-hmm. But as the, the news starts to become more well known, we everybody starts to be a little bit understanding that it wasn't our fault Meadows Festival.

51:30 This is a terrible situation that happened and, um, you know, it's okay. Right. So, you know, Kanye goes to Paris, we load out the site, we have this really unique year one, and we start to talk to agents and managers about bands that are available for the next year. So, you know, we get more and more, um, uh, feedback from the agents and managers and we're like, f**k, next year's crop of artists in September is sick. Yeah. You have the gorillas that are available. You have the chili peppers that are available. Um, you have Nas, you have Lizzo, um, you know, you have this, uh, you have Jay-Z Yeah.

52:11 Hometown, Jay-Z. Oh my God. Massive. So we're like, f**k yeah, right there. This is one good way to come back from a Right. You know, rocky year. Um, so we booked this amazing lineup to this day, I think one of the best lineups we've ever booked. Put this thing on sale and it was a complete disaster. Oh F**k Disaster. How with that lineup, How, yeah. It seems impossible. I'm still asking. Oh wow. Okay. I'm, I still don't understand. There was no Cause and effect that was apparent. Huh? I mean, I could tell you maybe it was the venue 'cause it was in the city field parking lot. Oh. Jay Z fans are older. They don't wanna go to that venue. But like, I'm kind of, of the belief if the talent lineup is good enough, people will come. It's like the field of dreams.

52:52 If you book them, they'll come. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Um, so, you know, maybe it was the venue, maybe it was the bad Juju from year one and word of mouth. Maybe gorillas, Jay-Z, red Chili Pepper fans, maybe they want a proper bathroom. Right. Maybe they don't wanna be at a festival. Right. And at that time that I started to realize that there was a shift in festivals where it started to get real young. Oh yeah. Mm-hmm. It used to be like older twenties to mid thirties or mid twenties to like older thirties. And then around 2017 it started to get real young when kids started to realize that Coachella was the f*****g coolest thing on the planet. Yeah. But they couldn't convince their parents to fly them to Indio, California.

53:34 I'll just go to my local festival here in New York City. Right. And that's when Gov Ball started to see this influx of super young people. And we started to see it in our survey results that like, people were p****d that these young kids were coming and getting super drunk. They were just acting a fool. Right. And negatively impacting, um, you know, music lovers experience at, at the festivals. Mm-hmm. And I think that, you know, maybe what the Meadows maybe, you know, this older fans were like, eh, Jay-Z will play New York again. The chili peppers are around every couple years. I'll wait to see them at the Garden or the Barclay Center as opposed to go to a festival where maybe a kid might throw up on my sneaker. Oh yeah, yeah. Right. And it's 95 degrees Max. Makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So when you saw that, you're like, s**t, we gotta book younger bands.

54:18 Well, when I saw the ticket sales in day one, I was like, f**k, how the f**k are we gonna get outta this one? Right. Um, and you know, we talked with, uh, you know, the team and we just, we played the show, tried to cut expenses as much as possible and, you know, just took that one on the chin. What Did Live Nations say when they're like, they probably were like, this is confusing. How is this slam slam dunk? Yeah. This is a slam dunk. Everybody, everybody was confused. Um, but you know what? You, you take the loss and you move on. Right. Nothing. Take the l Yeah. Take the l and you and you keep going. It's Kinda like the New York Knicks sometimes. Yeah. The the l You're speaking my language. 'cause I'm Knicks fan. Yeah. I'm back. A lot of Ls my entire life. Yeah, Dude, I'm a Laker fan.

54:59 We're, we're getting our asses stomped. Right. I like all Cleveland teams. So I think I win this. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Um, Well, I think this year you'll, you'll definitely win this. Yeah. So my question is too, like when you get, when you book these bigger bands, how many of these agents saying, if you want this guy, you're gonna need to take three of our smaller lineups too? It happens a lot. Yeah. Oh, okay. Is it mostly part of the deals? It's not. It's not. I think most of it is, you know, if you're dealing with a agent for a headliner or a sub headliner, um, you know, they're working with an incredible artist that you want on your bill. Right. Yeah. That agent certainly has, um, is certainly smart has his finger on the pulse of, of artists in general.

55:41 So when they're saying, I have these younger bands that you should put on your show, you know, maybe that could be the next headliner years down the road. Right. So a level of trust that you have to a degree, like we've had bands that have played, you know, first up on the main stage at noon that are now selling out two nights of the garden. Right. Right. And that started, the reason why they got that slot at 12 noon was because it was an agent saying, Hey, can you please book my younger band since you're also booking the penultimate band? Right, Right. Totally. And we also listen to all the music, right. Any submissions that come in where we're on Spotify, we're listening to what we're going to see them when they're in town next. And we're, uh, we're a part of that curation. Um, but, you know, we're all friends and, and music lovers at the end of the day. So Who, which agent is the hardest to deal with?

56:25 Well, again, I'm not a talent buyer, so I, I thankfully cannot answer that question. Which manager's, hardest manager deal with which manager's easiest to deal with? Might be the, Listen guys, I just deal with New York City and the production and site. Okay. So, okay. Then that's, I will say this, all of the agents and managers that are super tough, you know, like Marsha Lasik, she's a tough agent. Yeah, right. Incredibly intimidating. But I love her to death and she's so smart and, you know, she's dedicated to protecting her artists. And is she a little crazy? Sure. But like any executive or any high power person is gonna be a f*****g little bit crazy. I'm convinced.

57:06 What? So yeah, you have to be, what's your take on a New York agent, um, named John Bonjovi? We've booked some of his bands. Only Good things. I think he's got one on There this year. He's playing get, yeah. Yeah. You have K bin Do you have kung bin on it? I thought you Did. Royal Lotus Wet have Kung Band, but I, I love them to death. So Wonder Day. Oh, Royal Lotus. You have Royal Lotus. We do have Royal Lotus. Yeah. That, that's a great band, man. I mean, I love Royal Lotus. I saw them when they played at, um, I guess racket is what it's called now. Yeah. Um, but I've been up on them for a minute. They're, they're a great band. Great. Oh yeah, man. Tom, this has been so awesome to talk to you. I've learned a lot. Um, I've learned a lot. I wanna know, I got a couple more questions. How hard is it to deal with the f*****g city? That's what I was wondering too.

57:47 It's really f*****g hard, guys. Yeah, I f*****g bet. Dude. Taxes. It really are. I will say there are three people in the mayor's office who I would work with often who resigned because they were indicted. Oh my God. Holy s**t. Yeah, dude. Right? Yeah. Um, you have, um, turnover all the time in positions. Mm-hmm. And you have new mayor mayoral administrations. You know, there's a lot of politics between the agencies, between the parks department and the mayor's office and the fire department and the police department. And things just move really, really slowly. Yeah. Right. Um, it's really unfortunate because, you know, for Gov Ball we risk $25 million a year.

58:30 We're, we're pumping a hundred million dollars in economic activity into the economy annually. Right. And I gotta fight tooth and nail just to get my dates for the following year. Damn. What? And it's such a success for the city, and it's been going for over 10 years. So it's Like, you know, it's like a, it's, it's like a supply and demanding everybody wants to be in New York, so the city kind of thinks that, you know, it's okay to act this way. Um, I really wish that they, they took a more holistic view, uh, you know, for economic reasons, but also just cultural reasons. Hmm. Right. Like, we, we bring musicians and artists and fans from all over the world to New York City to spend money, enjoy the city, um, you know, live that experience.

59:10 And, you know, it should be easy. It should be a true partnership. And I, I do think it is a partnership. It's just, um, I wish it was easier. I wish after 15 years it was just a, just a Little Bit Easier. Yeah. You would think you'd, you know, give them my number. Tom, I'll fight for you. You, I have no skin in the game. I'm rooting for you, Tom. I'll, I'll f*****g yell at these guys. Okay. Yeah. Put 'em on the podcast. I, I appreciate that. I, I need all the help I can get sometimes get Mayor or Eric, Adam on here. People don't realize how important music festivals are to, for the grow. I mean, I grew up watching music festivals Same. And that grew my childhood. Like there, people don't realize how important the, these big fest, like Warp Tour Van's. Warp Tour was my festival. Yeah.

59:51 I mean, you know. Me too. Me too. I was a pop punk kid and I worked at Drive Through Records and I was, you know what? You worked at Drive Through? Yeah. I worked at Drive Through with Richard Rains. Wow. And, uh, I was booking Hello, goodbye. And, you know, I did some something corporate shows and I did that whole thing and I worked for Capital for Carist did for a bit before I was a musician as well. I used to hand out flyers for Epitaph and, um, fuel By Ramen. Dude, I Worked for Fuel by Ramen. I worked, I did, uh, gym cla I, I was marketing for gym Class Heroes in Paramore. Nice. Damn. Oh, you're a pop, you're a pop punk kid. Yeah. So I grew up in the city going to, uh, this venue, um, called Coney Island High, which is on St. Mark's place. Wow. And that's where like, and the wetland, so you know, oh, that makes milestones Less.

1:00:34 And Jake, no Effects. Like, that was my, I guess like third wave ska and like nineties punk. That was my jam. Hold on. Shapiro was booking ska at the Wetlands. Oh yeah. Oh Yeah, dude, that's my, I used to have this thing every, um, like once a once a month on Sundays. Ska Wars. Yep. Dude, that's my, that's my, like, one of my heroes is a promoter. Like he's, I think he, how he develops bands and how he cares. Yeah. I could tell you care too. So he's Beautiful mind. He's, he's a great guy. Yeah. Um, Tom, thanks so much for your time, man. I've learned a lot about bigger festivals and don't let those f*****g city guys give you any s**t. Okay. Yeah. You I'll, I'll talk to him. I'll talk to him for you. Tom. Hey Greg. Adam's phone number. Yeah, let's go.

1:01:15 Um, my last question, um, when it's all said and done, you know, you've been doing this a long time and I hope you keep doing it because it's important for the sake of music. Actually, I have two questions. Sorry. If your son or daughter wanna get into this music industry, what advice would you give them at 26 years old when you were first starting? So, I think what I would tell them is, I'd tell them something before they were 26. I'd tell them something going into college at first. I'd say go to a college in a, go a city where you could get opportunities outside of college. And when you're in college, get an internship. Get many internships so that you can see what it's like at various companies, especially companies that are in a, a field that you're really interested in and work your f*****g ass off Right.

1:02:04 In the internship, prove yourself. Right. Be the first one in and the last one to leave. Um, take everybody there out to lunch. 'cause ultimately they're probably gonna pay. 'cause you know, you're a broke college student and they work. Yeah. Um, pick their brain, ask questions, develop these relationships so that when it comes time for your internship to end, they say, well, f**k, that kid. Made our team better. Right. Let's keep him around or her around for the next semester, or, you know, let's hire them eventually. Uh, so it's really just about busting your ass and putting the work first and foremost when you know you're really young and you can Yeah. And then, you know, if you're not sure what you wanna do, find the segment that you wanna do, um, and then get a shitload of different internships across that, that field and see what, uh, see what you're good at.

1:02:53 Hmm. And once you lose your ass once, get the f**k out of there. Right. No, I'm just, I'm just kidding. I mean, you take the L and you move on. Yeah, yeah. In whatever direction you hear, you read it in every business book under the sun. Right, right. You got it. You can't be afraid to fail. Mm-hmm. And everybody fails and you know, you just f*****g keep doing it. It's Okay to get punched in the mouth, you just gotta keep fighting. Mm-hmm. That's right. Yeah. Tom, thanks so much for being on the show. Good luck with Governor's Ball this year and, uh, keep fighting the good fight, bro. We're ruining for you. Oh Yeah. Thank you guys. Thanks for having me. Have a Good one. Have a good day.